TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (1 of 31), Read 642 times, 1 File Attachment Conf: Tree Climbers From: Dave Spencer cutright@sympatico.ca Date: Saturday, March 18, 2000 01:16 PM

Peter, This one is directed for you, or anyone else with experience in this field.

I know how to figure out the forces on a speedline, tyrolean, or traverse (call it what you will). For those who don't know, the top diagram may be a real eye opener.
200 lbs of weight can easily = 1336 lbs of tension depending on the angle of the rope.

Of course we know that rarely in arboriculture do we have lines anchored at equal heights. In 90 % of the cases, the line is anchored high in the tree and goes to a second anchor at ground level. My vector diagrams fail me in this instance (see lower diagram) Can anyone help me figure out what leg B =? Is leg A right?

How does a tag line affect A, I would think that the tag would not exceed the weight of object. Is it as simple as subtracting the weight of the object from Leg A? Does this have an effect on B?

This topic goes well with the MA thread where we talked about amplified forces in a tree.

Dave

RIG.GIF (18KB)

Read topic starting at message #7416
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (2 of 31), Read 580 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Tom Dunlap canopytree@earthlink.net Date: Saturday, March 18, 2000 03:14 PM

Dave,

I have wondered about this same thing. There are some variables to consider in actual field use. For calculating the raw numbers we could say that these variables are zero.

1 Rope stretch
2 Built-in slack in line AB
3 Deflection of anchor A

Wouldn't the tagline have the 449# load added to the anchor point A? Or would it be double since the tagline is a redirect? The way that you have this setup, the redirect would not actually double the load since the angle is less than 180 degrees. At ninety degrees A would have about 70% of the load.

Livin' in MA confusion!

Tom

Read topic starting at message #7437
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (3 of 31), Read 591 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Joe Hash jbhash@webtv.net Date: Sunday, March 19, 2000 12:45 AM

I did a little research tonight and came up with the following formulas:

T(1)=tension on the speedline between the weight and anchor A

0(1)=theta angle the weight makes with the speedline towards anchor A

T(2)=tension between weight and anchor B

0(2)=theta angle the weight makes with the speedline towards anchor B

mg=weight

1st diagram:
The sum of the x-components:
T(2)cos0(2)-T(1)cos0(1)=O
T(2)cos0(2)=T(1)cos0(1) {cos0(2)=cos0(1)}
therefore,T(2)=T(1)

The sum of the y-components:
T(2)sin0(2)+T(1)sin0(1)-mg=O
substitute T(2) for T(1)
T(2)sin0(2)+T(2)sin0(1)-mg=O
add mg to both sides of the equation. Also, sin0(1)=sin0(2)
T(2)sin0(2)+T(2)sin0(2)=mg
since tension T and angle 0 are "=",
2Tsin0=mg
therefore,T = mg/(2sin0)
This should be the tension on each leg of the rope.

For the 2nd diagram:
T(1)=[mgcos0(2)]/cos(0(1)-0(2))
T(2)= mg/cos(0(1)-0(2))
This was a tedious equation to come up with so I omitted the details.
(edit 03/24/00:the equations for diagram 2 DON'T WORK! edit 08/27/00: the correct equations are posted in reply 17 of this thread.)
For the 3rd diagram:
T on the tag line = mgsin(01)
I think the tag line will relieve the tension in the speedline only as the speedline becomes more vertical at this point in my analysis of the diagram. My assumption is the tension in the speedline will start to be relieved by the tag line
when the speedline is 45 degrees as the angle of the speedline approaches 90 degrees.
My reference source for these analyses was from several problems out of Schaum's outline series, Theories and Problems of College Physics, 7th ed.
Joe
GENERAL DISCLAIMER:THIS IS AN EDUCATIONAL SITE AND THE INFORMATION IS BEING PROVIDED FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES AND I DISCLAIM ANY LIABILITY FOR THE USE OF THIS INFORMATION FOR ANY PURPOSES.

Read topic starting at message #7440
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (4 of 31), Read 592 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Tom Dunlap canopytree@earthlink.net Date: Sunday, March 19, 2000 10:52 AM

Joe,

Thanks for doing our homework! Reminds me of my high school physics club, The Society of Socialistic Physicists. We would get together before tests and each member would work through a separate problem and then present the solution to the group. That way we could cover more ground quicker.

I think the tag line will relieve the tension in the speedline only as the speedline becomes more vertical at this point in my analysis of the diagram. My assumption is the tension in the speedline will start to be relieved by the tag line when the speedline is 45 degrees as the angle of the speedline approaches 90 degrees.

This confirms my thought. As the tagline relieves tension, the load from the speedline is transferred to the anchor. This will increase the anchor load be some factor.

Livin' @ Lat. West 93.34
Long. North 45.02

Tom

Read topic starting at message #7442
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (5 of 31), Read 595 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Joe Hash jbhash@webtv.net Date: Sunday, March 19, 2000 12:01 PM

Tom and others,
I enjoy pursuing these sort problems since they are within the bounds of my
current level of knowledge. There are other factors involved with the physics
of the tension in the speedline which haven't been covered in the analyses.
For anyone who decides to use these formulas take precautions and use them as a reference for an educated guess as to what
the forces are when actually determining tensions on your lines. For those who
own the book "On Rope", see pages 66 and 67. There is a small discussion about the forces on the type of rope configuration
as in example "1" of Dave S.'s GIF. This is considered advanced rigging and requires a higher level of knowledge to understand, thus, the word of caution
to those who are getting their feet wet
as they begin to see how the applications
of these formulas can help them.

Joe

Read topic starting at message #7446
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (6 of 31), Read 603 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Mahk Adams adamsarborcare@att.net Date: Sunday, March 19, 2000 08:31 PM

Dave;

See Don Blair's 'Arborist Equipment', pages
175-176 and the NAA's 'Rigging for Removal
Workbook' page 70 (also by Don Blair).

I assume that the first part of the GIF
diagram was just to introduce this set up of
vector forces and that the main thrust of the
question is how much force is generated on
the legs, tagline and anchor of a speedline?
I do not have any specific numbers to offer
(I leave that to Pete or Joe), but I can
offer a way to (in some situations)
dramatically decrease the amount of tension
on the rope and on anchor A (which I will
call the lowering point).

A speedline is used because either 1) there
is something directly under A that prevents
you from lowering the load straight down; or
2) you want to move the load quickly to where
it can be processed. B is typically the base
of a tree or some other heavy, solid object
on the ground. If B is a tree I generally
look up and try to find a good solid crotch
that still gives the same line of pull, but
decreases the angle between A and B. The
speedline is put through this crotch and this
becomes anchor B. The line is not tensioned
until after the load is cut (this is often
the case with a speedline, but when the
anchor is on the ground it creates a lot more
force on the system because of the wide angle
between A and B) As the tagline lets the
load slide down the 'speedline' B is
tensioned to direct the load to the landing
zone.

Once you get the hang of how this works
you'll see that B does not have to be
directly over the drop zone (processing
area), it merely has to form a straight line
with the anchor and the drop zone. The
higher B is the more it helps to share the
force of the load and the less force there is
on A.

This is similar to a transfer line which I
tried to describe in an earlier thread, but it
seemed that I was not able to explain it well
enough without a diagram.

Thanks for the neat illustrations. Could you
explain how its done?

Mahk

tree tree tree tr

Read topic starting at message #7448
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (7 of 31), Read 607 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Tom Dunlap canopytree@earthlink.net Date: Sunday, March 19, 2000 08:55 PM

Mahk,

Good idea with the redirect at the anchor or B point.

When I have set up this system, I will set a large diameter block instead of a natural crotch. This keeps the speedline rope from tearing any of the bark off of the tree while tensioning.

I learned this the hard way, oops...

Livin' @ Lat. West 93.34
Long. North 45.02

Tom

Read topic starting at message #7455
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (8 of 31), Read 575 times, 1 File Attachment Conf: Tree Climbers From: Dave Spencer cutright@sympatico.ca Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 11:04 AM

God I love doing this stuff!

Joe, Check out the diagram attached. I tried to apply your formulas but it just doesn't seem right. I would have almost believed it if the figures T1 and T2 were switched around.

Dave

Looking forward to getting on to the tag line!

(still wishing I had a dynamometer)

CALCS.GIF (10KB)

Read topic starting at message #7453
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (9 of 31), Read 563 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Dave Spencer cutright@sympatico.ca Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 10:12 AM

>1st diagram:
>The sum of the x-components:
>T(2)cos0(2)-T(1)cos0(1)=O
>T(2)cos0(2)=T(1)cos0(1)
>{cos0(2)=cos0(1)}
>therefore,T(2)=T(1)

I do understand some of the equations but I am a very visual person (hence all my diagrams) Do you have any ideas how to put the equations into vector diagrams. I find this much simpler for me and probably others.

By the way Mahk, I do the diagrams on corel draw.

Read topic starting at message #7486
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (10 of 31), Read 536 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Joe Hash jbhash@webtv.net Date: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 11:00 PM

(edit between 03/24/00 and 03/25/00:keep following this thread. I solved this part of the speedline problem.(Arms up in the air, hands in a fist, stretched above my head in victory!))
Sorry Fellas, I SCREWED UP!!! I apologize
to you especially Dave S.. The equation
representing Illustration 2 of Dave S's
GIF is totally wrong. I set up an experiment at home and found the data from these equations didn't match the experimental values I came up with from doing the experiment. I also made a serious mistake by applying a subtraction formula to arrive at the final equations. However, I did work through the math again and came up with a couple of equations which at least gave values that paralleled the data results. I found that
the tension at A was higher than the experimental weight throughout the experiment. I also found that the tension at B was lower than the experimental weight. Sorry again fellas and Dave S., I thought I had it right.
Joe
P.S. equations for illustrations 1 and 3 are correct.

Read topic starting at message #7490
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (11 of 31), Read 540 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Dave Spencer cutright@sympatico.ca Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 08:19 AM

I did work through
>the math again and came up
>with a couple of equations
>which at least gave values
>that paralleled the data
>results.

Do you have these new equations?

I'm looking forward to trying them out!

Dave

Read topic starting at message #7494
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (12 of 31), Read 550 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Joe Hash jbhash@webtv.net Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 06:06 PM

Sorry Dave,
I'd much rather work the physics and
mathematics out and see to it the equations better reflect the results of the data I gather through crude methods of experimentation before I give them out. It beats the risk of embarrassment.

Here's a tip on estimating limb weights in case you didn't know it that requires you find the center of mass of the limb. You can do this on the ground after the limb is removed.

1) Balance the limb and mark its center of mass.

2)Cut the limb at the point of balance and measure the length and the diameter of both sides of the part with the least amount of brush. Hopefully,the part you measure has no brush.

3)apply the data to this equation:
2((pi/12)times(D^2+Dd+d^2)lw)
this is the equation of the volume of the frustum of a cone where,
D=larger diameter of the limb
d=smaller diameter of the limb
l=length of the limb
w=weight of the wood you are estimating per cubic foot from a wood weight table.
^2=squared or to the power of 2 for those who don't know the notation

example:you want to know the weight of an oak limb you just lowered.
You've found the center of mass of the limb and cut the limb in half. You've measured the length as 20 ft. the diameters as 4 and 6 inches.
then,
2times(pi/12)times((.5^2)+(.5)(.333)+(.333^2))times(20)times(63)=348 lbs. (approx.)
notice the diameter values were converted to decimal form before solving the equation. Also, you multiply the equation by 2 because there were 2 parts to the limb and only one part was measured. The question was how much does the limb weigh.

If the ends of the limb are of the same diameter, or if you want to know the weight of a trunk section where the diameter of each end are the same, apply this formula: the equation of the volume of a cylinder
(pi/4)times(d^2)lw where,
d=diameter
l=length
w= wood weight per cubic foot

For the estimation of a trunk section of oak whose length is 10 ft. with a diameter of 3 ft.
(pi/4)times(3^2)times(10)times(63)=4453 lbs. (approx.)
These equations can be applied with a scientific calculator without knowing the
math. But be certain the numbers are correct and when working with inches they're converted into decimal form, which will be in feet.

To convert inches into its decimal equivalent, divide the # of inches by 12. example: 3 inches divided by 12 inches=(3/12)=.25 feet. I like to gather measurements from time to time in the field and take them home for analysis later to keep from holding up production. I also like to use oak as a reference when working with other trees
since wood weights vary and oak is the heavier of the different types of wood.
Joe

GENERAL DISCLAIMER: THIS IS AN EDUCATIONAL SITE AND THIS INFORMATION IS BEING PROVIDED FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES AND I DISCLAIM ANY LIABILITY FOR USE OF THIS INFORMATION FOR ANY PURPOSES

Read topic starting at message #7495
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (13 of 31), Read 501 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Mahk Adams adamsarborcare@att.net Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 07:53 PM

Dave and or Joe;

Could you clarify and explain (or hypothesize
on) a couple of points for me?

On 3/18/00 1:16:00 PM, Dave Spencer wrote:

In 90 % of the
>cases, the line is anchored
>high in the tree and goes to a
>second anchor at ground level.
>

I assume that this refers to a speedline
setup.

>How does a tag line affect A,
>I would think that the tag
>would not exceed the weight of
>object. Is it as simple as
>subtracting the weight of the
>object from Leg A? Does this
>have an effect on B?

I also assume that in this case the tag line
is also the 'haulback' line and, as its
illustrated, is used to control the descent
>
>This topic goes well with the
>tree.
>

What about the force that is created using a
lowering line and a tag line to pull the load
to a landing zone that is not directly under
the lowering point. That is, suppose you do
not use a speed line, but just a lowering
line. There is some obstacle directly under
the lowering point so you have to use a tag
line to pull the load sideways rather than
letting it go straight to the ground. Will
this increase the force on the line? I would
guess that the force would be the same unless
the people pulling on the tag line jerk on
the load, in which case it would increase the
force--but by how much? And if a truck is
used to pull the tag line will the movement
create more force than a static line that is
simply pre tensioned?

Mahk

tree tree tree tree tree tree tree tree tre

Read topic starting at message #7507
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (14 of 31), Read 508 times, 1 File Attachment Conf: Tree Climbers From: Dave Spencer cutright@sympatico.ca Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 11:35 AM

On 3/23/00 7:53:00 PM, Mahk Adams wrote:

>I assume that this refers to a speedline
>setup.

Yes

>I also assume that in this case the tag
>line
>is also the 'haulback' line and, as its
>illustrated, is used to control the
>descent

Yes

>What about the force that is created
>using a
>lowering line and a tag line to pull the
>to a landing zone that is not directly
>under
>the lowering point. That is, suppose
>you do
>not use a speed line, but just a
>lowering
>line. There is some obstacle directly
>under
>the lowering point so you have to use a
>tag
>line to pull the load sideways rather
>than
>letting it go straight to the ground.

As soon as the rope breaks the vertical plane, the forces will increase.You will be able to use the same calcs we are working on to figure out these forces.

You have actually made a great example to help illustrate how much the forces are amplified; Take a good chunk of wood and as it is lowered, pull back on the tag line. As the wood is lowered, you will find it easier to pull back. This has to do with the angle created (theta in the diagram). It is impossible to make theta 180 degrees. You will reach a point close to it but the rope will have long ago broken. (see theoretical graph) So the lower theta is, the less tension on the rope. Let a chunk down halfway, stand way back, and feel the forces required to pull theta larger.

>Will
>this increase the force on the line? I
>would
>guess that the force would be the same
>unless
>the people pulling on the tag line jerk
>on
>the load, in which case it would
>increase the
>force--but by how much? And if a truck
>is
>used to pull the tag line will the
>movement
>create more force than a static line
>that is
>simply pre tensioned?
>
>Mahk

All of our diagrams and equations are figured in a point in time or (static system) As most of the angles change during a logs ride to the ground, we want to figure out the forces in a given instant.

As far as the truck goes. Remember how much force it can take to pull theta towards 180 degrees. These forces also affect the tension between the pulley and the log. So one thing we are trying to figure out in this thread is what is the force above the log if the force below is say 300 lbs for a given theta. These forces can run very high and remember that you are running the rope through a pulley at the top of a tree. (not doubling the force but close). If you are pulling with a truck, make sure you use a long rope to decrease theta as much as possible, thereby decreasing the force on the top of the tree.

Dave

(geez, even my head is spinning)

LOWER.GIF (8KB)

Read topic starting at message #7519
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (15 of 31), Read 491 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Isaac Himanga ihimanga@yahoo.com Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 10:08 PM

After doing some research, I have finally found what I believe to be a reasonable formula. Not only that, but it seams to work.

See fig. 1 - A and B are trees (or whatever else you want to tie yourself to) and C is the climber/log.

\ = angle in degrees
| | = absolute value (distance from zero)

***and***

A[cos(\ADC-90)] - C[sin(90-\BDC)]- C = 0

When you solve the second equation, you can find B, and put that in the first equation, and you can find A.

SO. . . .
(fig. II)

C = 200 lbs.

A[cos(|70-90|)] - B[sin(|120-180|)= 0]
.94A - .87B = 0

***and***

A[cos(120-90)] - 200[sin(90-70)]- 200 = 0
.87A - 200*.34 - 200 = 0
.87A - 68 - 200 = 0
.87A = 268
A = 308.05 lbs.

so . . .

.94A - .87B = 0
.94*308.05 - .87B = 0
289.57=.87B
B = 332 lbs.

I am still trying to figure out how to put a fourth leg (the tag line) into the system.

Let me know if this works,

Isaac

Read topic starting at message #7520
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (16 of 31), Read 499 times, 1 File Attachment Conf: Tree Climbers From: Isaac Himanga ihimanga@yahoo.com Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 10:22 PM

OOPs, here is the image:

Isaac

IMG.GIF (4KB)
Opposing Forces

Read topic starting at message #7521
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (17 of 31), Read 503 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Joe Hash jbhash@webtv.net Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 11:20 PM

Thanks for jumping in on this one with us Isaac, but I found the correct solution tonight as you were posting. The solution lied in the solution to illustration one where the forces at the anchors are equal.
I wonder how many people saw this and refused to speak up about it. Here are those 2 elusive equations we've been searching for:

theta 1=(01)
theta 2=(02)
T1=tension at the top of the tree
T2=tension at the bottom of the speedline

A point I need to make when one applies these equations is where to find the proper angles so the equations give the proper results. One needs to draw a coordinate axis(a "+" sign) through the bend in the rope where the weight hangs. The angles are found by measuring them from the horizontal axis and these angles are acute. One will be positive(01) and one will be negative(02). Each angle reflects the force of the anchor its pointing towards. Don't forget to use the "-" sign when plugging the angles into the equations.

T1=(mgcos(02))/[(sin(01)cos(02))+(sin(02)cos(01)]

T2=(mgcos(01))/[(sin(02)cos(01))+(sin(01)cos(02)]

mg=200
(01)=30degrees
(02)=-10degrees

T1=(200cos(-10))/[(sin(30)cos(-10)+(sin(-10)cos(30))]=576 lb. (approx.)

T2=(200cos(30))/[(sin(-10)cos(30))+(sin(30)cos(-10))]=506 lb. (approx.)

Remember:These forces are represented in a static situation where no acceleration,
friction, rope stretch etc. are factored into the model. Otherwise this situation is not dynamic.

Joe
GENERAL DISCLAIMER:THIS IS AN EDUCATIONAL SITE AND THE INFORMATION PROVIDED IS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES AND I DISCLAIM ANY LIABILITY FOR USE OF THIS INFORMATION FOR ANY PURPOSE.

Read topic starting at message #7534
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (18 of 31), Read 493 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Isaac Himanga ihimanga@yahoo.com Date: Saturday, March 25, 2000 07:17 PM

Joe,

I looked at the two formulas, and they seem to be the same, only set up in different ways.

Isaac

Read topic starting at message #7537
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (19 of 31), Read 492 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Joe Hash jbhash@webtv.net Date: Saturday, March 25, 2000 09:33 PM

Isaac,
Are you referring to the 2 formulas I
presented and you think there should be only one equation? Or are you referring to your formulas as looking the same as my formulas except I used trigonometric functions. I don't understand what your
comment refers to.
Joe

Read topic starting at message #7538
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (20 of 31), Read 499 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Isaac Himanga ihimanga@yahoo.com Date: Saturday, March 25, 2000 09:44 PM

I mean your formulas and mine look similar, just that mine use calc. and yours trig.

Isaac

Read topic starting at message #7541
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (21 of 31), Read 501 times, 1 File Attachment Conf: Tree Climbers From: Dave Spencer cutright@sympatico.ca Date: Sunday, March 26, 2000 07:53 AM

Some people could not load the attachment so I have included a gif as well.

The purpose of this whole exercise was not to develop a formula to figure out exactly what forces are involved when you load a speed line. It was to educate people to the fact that the forces can be much greater than the weight of the object. I only hope we have saved someone from a serious speedline accident. (either having the rope break, or the top of the tree)

I will post my theory on the tag line as soon as I get a chance. Thank you to everyone who participated in this thread. It has been the most fun thread this board has ever had. (opinion of a nerd) I'll probably shed a tear when we lose it to the archives.

Dave

MICROSOFT EXCEL #01.GIF (44KB)

Read topic starting at message #7556
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (22 of 31), Read 511 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Peter Donzelli donzep@rpi.edu Date: Monday, March 27, 2000 05:04 PM

On 3/26/00 7:53:00 AM, Dave Spencer wrote:
>The purpose of this whole
>exercise was not to develop a
>formula to figure out exactly
>what forces are involved when
>you load a speed line. It was
>to educate people to the fact
>that the forces can be much
>greater than the weight of the
>object.

Even I don't climb with a calculator, so I have to second Dave's thoughts here. What is most important is understanding the physics enough so that you can predict changes in a rig, not the absolute forces. I think the general trends people have calculated seem to be OK, and I like the diagrams. And, certainly, the forces are way more than the weight of the log you are moving. I've heard of people pulling trees out of the ground with a speedline (granted it was a small tree and should not have been used as an anchor, but *still*).

That being said, I don't think the numbers are correct. Many people have asked me to try my hand at this calculation. As much as I have tried, I don't yet understand it to my own satisfaction, and don't want to pass off bad information. I also don't want to speak ill of others, but I was not that impressed with the treatment of speedline forces in the NAA rigging workbook (the video is a whole other story). There were equations thrown around, but I don't think anyone really understood the physics behind their application.

Someplace early on in the thread, someone mentioned the initial rope tension and stretch (engineers would talk about rope stiffness, the ability to resist stretch). This is the key to solving for the forces in a speedline. Problem is that it now becomes more complicated than just vector diagrams; there are differential equations involved. Just as important, though are some experiments to validate the equations. Joe mentioned he did some of this, but I'd also be interested in doing it full-scale. If I ever do get more insight into this, I'll write about it.

Later,
Pete

Read topic starting at message #7532
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (23 of 31), Read 461 times, 1 File Attachment Conf: Tree Climbers From: Dave Spencer cutright@sympatico.ca Date: Saturday, March 25, 2000 02:59 PM

I believe that most of our answers lie here...

Next step; tag line (I think I have it!)

Dave

TENSION CALCS.XLS (33KB)

Read topic starting at message #7539
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (24 of 31), Read 453 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Tom Dunlap canopytree@earthlink.net Date: Saturday, March 25, 2000 10:51 PM

Wow, you guys are going all out.

The work put together on this discussion amounts to the sum total of all written load calculations for a speed line that I have ever read.

Here is a little info from the Rescue people. This is a really good website too.

http://www.techrescue.org/vertical/vertical-ref4.html

There are some good rope and rigging quizzes.

The formulas are great for use when we sit at the keyboard. Can anyone translate them into a magnitude factor or maybe begin to make a rule of thumb? Or, is the best we have, the charts that Don Blair pulled together about sling loads?

Livin' @ Lat. West 93.34
Long. North 45.02

Tom

Read topic starting at message #7544
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (25 of 31), Read 454 times, 2 File Attachments Conf: Tree Climbers From: Dave Spencer cutright@sympatico.ca Date: Sunday, March 26, 2000 03:40 PM

here are my thoughts on the effect of a tag line.
I figure that the tag line acts as a line holding a frictionless object on an inclined plane. That was simple and I think Joe and others had the same idea.

The hard part is how this affects T1 or the parallel line. My only thought was the first and most simplistic one that came to mind. The force on the tagline is subtracted from T1.

Check out the Gif and see if you agree.

I also modified the xl attachment from before. Punch in any weight and angles and it will give you the results and graph what the lines would look like.(not exact but you get the idea)

Try estimating previous work, especially if you have photos you can get angles from.

Dave

Livin in Bliss (don't know the co-ordinates)

CALCTAG.GIF (5KB)

CALCS2.XLS (17KB)

Read topic starting at message #7545
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (26 of 31), Read 461 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Tom Dunlap canopytree@earthlink.net Date: Sunday, March 26, 2000 05:41 PM

Dave,

If I wanted to know what the load was on A would I add T1+Tt? 575.87+101=686.87

Since there are two lines it seems like this is right...

If so, it shows how important a solid anchor needs to be. To reduce the load on A another leader could be used.

Livin' dizzy

Tom

Read topic starting at message #7550
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (27 of 31), Read 465 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Dave Spencer cutright@sympatico.ca Date: Monday, March 27, 2000 09:40 AM

On 3/26/00 5:41:00 PM, Tom Dunlap wrote:
>Dave,
>
>If I wanted to know what the
>T1+Tt? 575.87+101=686.87
>
>Since there are two lines it
>seems like this is right...

There are actually 3 lines because the tag line is usually controlled from the ground. Remember our pulley talk for before. It will not be quite double Tt because of the angles formed. A good rough guide though might be:

A = T1+(Tt * 1.75)

>If so, it shows how important
>a solid anchor needs to be. To
>reduce the load on A another
>

I think there still may be some slight problems with the calcs. Stay posted...

Dave

Read topic starting at message #7551
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (28 of 31), Read 475 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Tom Dunlap canopytree@earthlink.net Date: Monday, March 27, 2000 09:50 AM

Oops! I slipped off the foundation of mechanical advantage.

Strong limbs just got MORE important!

Livin' @ Lat. West 93.34
Long. North 45.02

Tom

Read topic starting at message #7577
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (29 of 31), Read 454 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Gerry Layton laytongroup@netzero.net Date: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 07:49 PM

Thank you to all who have contributed to this awesome thread. Inclement weather kept me home today so I took the time to set up some rigging and experiment with MA, speedline, and speedline/lowering/redirect combinations.
I haven't had the opportunity to work with speedlines much in the field as of yet but when I do I'll be more prepared to set a system that is much safer than if I had done so before, saving property damage and/or life or limb.
Cheers!
Strong anchors and slack speedlines,
Gerry

Read topic starting at message #7613
 TOP | Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (30 of 31), Read 437 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Brad Whitteker swhitteker@accglobal.net Date: Friday, March 31, 2000 09:29 PM

Hey Dave,

When you are talking about the forces on a speedline. Are you talking about the angle's put on the rope? Like for example, if a rope is at 0 degree's the load is at 50% on each end of the rope, and at 90 degree's, the load is at 70%, and at 120 degree's, the load is at 100%, and at 150 degree's, the load it at 200%, and at 170 degree's, the load is at 1150%???

Topic: forces on a speedline (31 of 31)
 Post | Reply | Reply/Quote | Email Reply | Delete | Edit Previous | Next | Previous Topic | Next Topic | Entire Topic
 Topic: forces on a speedline (31 of 31), Read 410 times Conf: Tree Climbers From: Joe Hash jbhash@webtv.net Date: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 09:39 PM

Back again. I added another scale to my experimental station. I'm beginning to find when a tag line is added to the speedline
as a system, the tension at the "anchor points" increase. The tension at B is larger than the tension when no tag line is used. The sum of the tensions at A are larger than the tension at A without a tag line. However, the individual tensions, that of the tag line and that of A are smaller than the tension at A without a tag line. The numerical values at the anchor points result from the angles made on the lines due to anchor point and weight location. These #'s can show the sensitivity of any changes in angle within the system. My observations are not absolute.

If I ever figure an acceptable set of equations which reflect the tensions in a speedline with a tag line attached, there's some serious calculus and physics involved with bringing dynamics into the picture. Can any one confirm or deny my observations? Has anybody had a nagging itch they couldn't scratch? This is what this problem does to me.

Joe

 Tree Nature Over Watered Trees Root Crowns Canopy Functions Soil Protection Included Bark Archive Included Bark Co~Dominance Tree Muscles Supporting~Wood Singular~Dominance Single~Trees Ground~Covering Permeable Ground Soil Sea Rhizospere Tree Nature Our Giants TerritorialFeeding RootFungi's Knots Friction~Hitch~New Stopper Knots New Knot~Links Knot Basics-New FH comparison ParBuckle - SpinFactor ButterFly~Knot FH comparison2 Jacked Bowline FrictionHitches Bowline/ Carabineer Caution Baby Holding Bus Knot Theory Barrel, Bunt, Lobster Eyes Tautline Tree Work Lanyards ChainSaw Links Climbing Trimming~Guide Safety Caught on Camera More Power to Ya! Mistletoe Image Archives Rope& Rig Leveraged/Bent Lines Mayhem Puzzle Forces on a Speedline Included Bark Archive Over Watered Trees Root Crowns Force Relationships Hinging Dutchmans Hinge Forensics Tree~Issues& Misc. Flash! BarberChair Dutch Push in 1 side of Face Leverage / Mech. Adv. & Tensionless Anchors Mahk's Stump Example Starting Flash Flash Flash Trials FlashFilesMaid 2 Rope Grip Theories 2handing Leverage Theory Pull Angles on Load Kid's Math - 5's Sling Angles Flash Rope Archives SuperBob HomeWrecker Game Chainsaw Use Math Force Calculators Rope Angle Leverage Calculator Leverage of Lean Calculator DWT Forces Calculator Mayhem Puzzle Kid's Math - 5's Tree Muscles Misc. MTL Home Page Links and Respects Disclaimer Contact~Email No Limbs 76 BPP Krystal Wed

Tree service as an education; has been a fascinating journey!

8/1/4 (Always Under Construction & Expansion!)